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Today's Topics:
1. Inter-CMS communication (Aki Mimoto)
2. Autonomy (Alex McLintock)
3. RE: Data Extraction (Rizwan Virk)
4. Re: cms-list digest, Vol 1 #283 - 10 msgs (Charley Bay)
5. Fw: cms-list digest, Vol 1 #283 - 10 msgs (Nick Geoghegan)
6. Adobe GoLive (Hari M)
7. Reqest for opinions: OpenSource CMS (Jenn Accettola)
8. vague question (John Morse)
9. RE: vague question ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
10. Re: Adobe GoLive (Todd Warfel)
11. Re: Reqest for opinions: OpenSource CMS ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
12. RE: CMS + Accesibility (WAS: [cms-list] vague question) (Austin, Darrel)
13. RE: vague question (Heller, David)
14. RE: Adobe GoLive (Heller, David)
15. RE: CMS + Accesibility (WAS: [cms-list] vague question) (Heller, David)
16. Re: Reqest for opinions: OpenSource CMS (Hari M)
17. RE: CMS + Accesibility (WAS: [cms-list] vague question) (Austin, Darrel)
18. Re: Re: cms-list digest, Vol 1 #283 - 10 msgs (Charles Reitzel)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:27:14 -0700
From: Aki Mimoto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization: Gossamer Threads
Subject: [cms-list] Inter-CMS communication
Hello,
I was wondering if there are any cross-vendor standards for writing apps with a SOAP/XML-RPC/etc interfaces.
As an application developer it would be nice to be able to create plugins or app bridges that work with multiple vendors in a tested interface.
From what I've seen though, the tools are available, but I can't find anything much in terms of implementation. EDI sounds interesting but I'm not sure how many support it (usually only hear about it in ecommerce anyways). Can anyone give me pointers to guidelines or a document?
Thanks in advance :) Aki --__--__--
Message: 2 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:20:35 +0100 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Alex McLintock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [cms-list] Autonomy Swearword! I was going to ask you what work conditions were like in Athens! Don't come to London - no one seems to be doing new projects at all. Alex McLintock
From: "michael papadopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:16:29 +0000 Subject: [cms-list] Autonomy I'm an MBA graduate and for the past I've been involved in Autonomy Portal-in-a-box projects in Greece. Work conditions right now in Athens are very bad and I'm looking to relocate (anywhere in the EU). Does anyone know a company that is looking for people with experience in Autonomy's products?
Openweb Analysts Ltd, London.
Software For Complex Websites http://www.OWAL.co.uk/
Open Source Software Companies please register here
http://www.OWAL.co.uk/oss_support/
--__--__--
Message: 3
From: "Rizwan Virk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [cms-list] Data Extraction
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:08:22 -0400
Hello hari,
Historically, the general method to extract content out of existing web
sites and documents has been either:
1) manually convert (lots of pizza and coke or off-shore typists)
or
2) write custom code in the programming language of your choice to try to
parse.
-if that works in producing some reasonable XML, write some more code
(XSLT) to process this into the final format you'd like to get it into.
-when that doesn't work, go back to option 1.
There are a number of companies, including mine, www.cambridgedocs.com, that
are developing automated solutions that help you to manage sets of parsing
rules without having to write any code for doing this type of conversion.
We focus primarily on how to convert unstructured content - like that in a
web site - into meaningful XML, which is then imported into the CMS. Here's
a link to a paper on the problems that people face when trying to do this
type of parsing: http://www.cambridgedocs.com/id16.htm
Check us out and see if it's relevant to your situation.
Thanks,
Riz
------------------------------
Riz Virk, (617) 905-3518
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cambridgedocs.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:cms-list-admin@;cms-list.org]On
Behalf Of Hari M
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [cms-list] Data Extraction
Can anyone recommend a data extraction software that helps transfer content
from a Web-site to a CMS?
Thank you.
HM
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:29:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charley Bay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [cms-list] Re: cms-list digest, Vol 1 #283 - 10 msgs
Peter Kappus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Perl Perl Perl! Depending on your love of programming, perl can quickly become your best friend <snip>, It's free, relatively easy to get started with, and will let you do some incredibly powerful acrobatics with very little effort. <snip> I've also heard that Python and Ruby are good for this sort of thing, but Perl has been around a lot longer and has an extensive library of modules to keep you from reinventing the wheel. <snip>
I've *got* to "second" Peter on this... nowhere else have I ever seen a programming language that "a little bit of knowledge is ok", meaning you can get work done knowing only a little bit. Usually, a little bit of knowlege is enough to get you in (really big) trouble. Perl stands alone there (easy to approach). Oh, and don't try to learn the whole Perl language. Nobody can, and nobody does. ;-)
Anyone else have experience with Python or Ruby for extracting data and building XML?
I spent a *lot* of time trying to justify using both Perl and Python. In the end, I use them both: They are so different. I'm watching Ruby carefully, and haven't decided yet. NOTHING IS EVEN CLOSE to Perl's ability to perform data reduction. Suck in a zillion files, regex, crunch, spit out the subset you want. Python is really neat, but it's never going to be as fast and convenient on the development side as is Perl. Be careful, though: Perl is the equivolent of a double-barrel sawed-off shotgun, and you pick up really bad habits really quickly. It's for when you want to get work done, not when you want to make something architecturally beautiful. And, I'm in the advanced end with multi-dimensional data structures w/references, overlaying modules and namespaces, type globbing, and "classes" with virtual inheritance (even though Perl5 supports a lot of that stuff, most people don't find a reasonable justification to go there). I've given up on selecting "just Perl" or "just Python"... they are useful for fundamentally different things. I use Python for test harness generation and everything scripted that scales over time. IMHO, Python is the BEST language ever devised to teach programming, and it reinforces good habits and good practices. (And, you can interface Python with C++ really easily with http://www.boost.org libraries-- You can't do that with Perl.) There are some very good Python libraries out there for XML parsing/writing (Perl too), and we're having good success with XML libs for Python. Ruby is an interesting "unifying back-end" where many languages can "come together" for logical inter-operation (and Ruby is its own language). I'm not strong there, but am interested in other opinions of it. FYI... in the biotech and "human genome" world, Perl dominates (mostly because it's easy and it was there first). Python and Ruby are starting to gain interest. I find this a little weird, though, because those guys have BIG problems and needs for BIG systems, and architecting solutions for big solutions seems like more of a need for Python than Perl (Perl is easy to get work done, but Python scales much better, IMHO).
Of course, unlike me, you may not run home from work to write code in your free time...in which case, you should probably talk to Russell.
Heheheheheee. Life is a stream of consciousness from one compiler to another. ;-) --charley [EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Nick Geoghegan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:29:43 +1000 Subject: [cms-list] Fw: cms-list digest, Vol 1 #283 - 10 msgs Hari, you wrote: "Can anyone recommend a data extraction software that help transfer content from a Web-site to a CMS?" I would agree that you should consult your CMS vendor / documentation. I recommend that when you do you look, look very carefully at what they do and ask some hard questions. If your website to be converted is large, comprised of well-structured created with a limited number of templates, you may find the automated solution provided works very well once configured. If on the other hand your site is not large, your pages are not consistently structured, use a large number of templates etc. you may discover the costs and time for configuring the import functionality and checking the final output are hard to justify. If your CMS has a reasonably intuitive UI, a room full of students copy and pasting may be a more cost and time effective method to get your (although very lo-fi) Nick --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Hari M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:51:44 -0700 Subject: [cms-list] Adobe GoLive How does Adobe GoLive stack up against other CMS like Atomz, Vignette, Microsoft CMS? We are in the process of considering options to migrate our content to a CMS solution. A mind boggling task at this early sage. Thank you for your assistance - it really helps to have the experiences shared. Hari _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:16:03 -0700 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Jenn Accettola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [cms-list] Reqest for opinions: OpenSource CMS Hi group - I'm looking for opinions on open source CMS: 1. who should use open source CMS 2. what are the most reliable open source CMS out there (and which verticals do they best support?) 3. major advantages or disadvantages of using open source CMS? Thanks! --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "John Morse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:26:25 +0100 Subject: [cms-list] vague question new to the list and I have a query which you may be able to answer for me I am also one a number of mail lists relating to accessibility and the use of the web by disabled users, I am not aware of any cms commercial or otherwise which carters for blind, visually impaired or otherwise disabled users, so does anyone have any information to show otherwise? John Morse Project Manager p:0117 980 9420 www.owta.net --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- --__--__-- Message: 9 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [cms-list] vague question Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:16:05 +0200 John, I've been looking into this matter for a while now, so here is my impression of WAI support in the CMS market today. Nearly every CMS is capable of creating WAI conform pages. It's not possible with all CMS to have WAI relenvant infomations as mandatory fields. Validation routines are no integral function of todays CMS. But there are some nice tools you can integrate. CMS themselves are not accessible out of the box. With CM-frameworks and CMS with an open API you can build you own accessible UIs. I also see more and more CMS vendors jumping on this train and trying to build accessible UIs at least for content contrbutors. I think this is a thing which we will see coming in 2003. But right now I also haven't seen any systems following the Authoring tools guidelines of the WAI. HTH Ingo
-----Original Message----- From: John Morse [mailto:john@;owta.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [cms-list] vague question new to the list and I have a query which you may be able to answer for me I am also one a number of mail lists relating to accessibility and the use of the web by disabled users, I am not aware of any cms commercial or otherwise which carters for blind, visually impaired or otherwise disabled users, so does anyone have any information to show otherwise? John Morse Project Manager p:0117 980 9420 www.owta.net --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- -- http://cms-list.org/ trim your replies for good karma.
--__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:36:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [cms-list] Adobe GoLive From: Todd Warfel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Hari M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> AGL isn't a CMS -- it's a WYSIWYG editor. You would use AGL to create the HTML framework/elements that would then go into your CMS. On 10/23/02 1:51 AM, "Hari M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How does Adobe GoLive stack up against other CMS like Atomz, Vignette, Microsoft CMS? We are in the process of considering options to migrate our content to a CMS solution. A mind boggling task at this early sage. Thank you for your assistance - it really helps to have the experiences shared. Hari
Cheers! Todd R. Warfel _//message first [method second] .--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--. _//user experience architect Information architecture Interaction design Usability analysis [P] (607) 339-9640 [E] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [w] http://www.mk27.com .--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--. In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, they're not -- anonymous --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:44:12 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [cms-list] Reqest for opinions: OpenSource CMS Hi Jenn,
1. who should use open source CMS
Short answer: Anybody who needs it. Long answer: open source CMS are able to replace the most available commercial CMS tools if you just compare functionality. In fact their are more than only feature lists when evaluating a cms. So you should place the open source CMS in the same process you take for evaluating commercial CMS. This is the only way to see, if an open source CMS can fullfill your needs.
2. what are the most reliable open source CMS out there
Its the same as in the commercial market: Nodbody can tell, whats the best. In my oppinion eZpublish and Typo3 are very good replacements for commercial ones. nAdmin Studie (based on Midgard) is it, too. If you think a bit smaller - as there are smaller commercial CMS, too - Systems like Contenido are good, too. You have to evaluate, whats the best for you. (Where actually planing an customer project with Typo3, additionatly I created a bunch of websites using Contenido).
3. major advantages or disadvantages of using open source CMS?
Major advanteg: No license cost, no anual fees. Major disadvanteges: higher integration costs, often support only by forums, no guarantee for future development, a.s.o But: By using an open soure CMS, you can normally cut the costs by 20-30%. Beste wishes, Joerg Dennis Krueger Avinci - The Know-How Company http://www.avinci.biz --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Austin, Darrel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CMS + Accesibility (WAS: [cms-list] vague question) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:57:45 -0500 As a government entity currently looking at CMS systems, we have the same concern. However, in my (albeit somewhat limited) research, the CMS isn't responsible for accesibility, but rather the internal developers who develop the content structure, markup and presentation templates. I think a CMS that doesn't offer much flexibility in how the content is marked up in the CMS's WYSIWYG editor (if it has one), or how it stores the content (such as storing a xml-dirty word file) can lead to some problems, but really, that is more of an issue for the client, not necessarily the CMS vendor. I think one bonus of a good CMS is that you could probably quite easily use different templates as you see fit to accomodate different disabilities. Granted, CSS is supposed to accomodate that as well. As for catering to the blind, there is only so much you can do with the content and templates. Ultimately, you are at the mercy of the quality of the screen reading software (which is a mixed bag at this point in time, it seems). I'd like to see some CMSs push accessibility options in their WYSIWYG editors, though...like the addition of full CSS support (which some do already...allowing the client to use a custom set of CSS tags for marking up content), the ability to include tags and attributes like ABBR, TITLE, LONGDESC, etc. BTW, care to share a few of those accesibility mailing lists with us? -Darrel
I am not aware of any cms commercial or otherwise which carters for blind, visually impaired or otherwise disabled users, so does anyone have any information to show otherwise?
--__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Heller, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'John Morse '" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'[EMAIL PROTECTED] '" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [cms-list] vague question Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:34:41 -0700 First that isn't a vague question. :) Documentum's new line, "Documentum 5" built will be very close to 508c compliance. We are working now on complete 508c compliance, but can't claim it yet. -- Dave -----Original Message----- From: John Morse To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/23/2002 2:26 AM Subject: [cms-list] vague question new to the list and I have a query which you may be able to answer for me I am also one a number of mail lists relating to accessibility and the use of the web by disabled users, I am not aware of any cms commercial or otherwise which carters for blind, visually impaired or otherwise disabled users, so does anyone have any information to show otherwise? John Morse Project Manager p:0117 980 9420 www.owta.net --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- -- http://cms-list.org/ trim your replies for good karma. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Heller, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Todd Warfel '" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'Hari M '" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'[EMAIL PROTECTED] '" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [cms-list] Adobe GoLive Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:35:35 -0700 So there are some very basic CMS features here in GoLive, same as Dreamweaver. Actually, it can do things that some CMS's can't do, but it is not really a CMS. It does templating and some very basic link management, but it has not real version control, nor does it have workflow and lifecycle management. Also, you are pitting an editor (GoLive) against a hosted service (Atomz) against a full enterprise level CMS package (Vignette). The scope and costs of these packages are exponentially different. Don't even know where to begin on a comparison. -- dave -----Original Message----- From: Todd Warfel To: Hari M; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/23/2002 6:36 AM Subject: Re: [cms-list] Adobe GoLive AGL isn't a CMS -- it's a WYSIWYG editor. You would use AGL to create the HTML framework/elements that would then go into your CMS. On 10/23/02 1:51 AM, "Hari M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How does Adobe GoLive stack up against other CMS like Atomz, Vignette, Microsoft CMS? We are in the process of considering options to migrate our content to
a CMS
solution. A mind boggling task at this early sage. Thank you for your assistance - it really helps to have the
experiences
shared. Hari
Cheers! Todd R. Warfel _//message first [method second] .--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--. _//user experience architect Information architecture Interaction design Usability analysis [P] (607) 339-9640 [E] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [w] http://www.mk27.com .--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--. In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, they're not -- anonymous -- http://cms-list.org/ trim your replies for good karma. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Heller, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Austin, Darrel '" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'[EMAIL PROTECTED] '" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: CMS + Accesibility (WAS: [cms-list] vague question) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:38:31 +0100 Actually, the CMS most definitely has to be 508 for gov't contracts. The CMS being 508 means that your developers can be disabled and still use the system, not what you create using the system is for people who are disabled. Darrel is right on the latter point. As I said earlier Documentum is committed to making a 508c compliant CMS system. Its Documentum 5 package is very close to compliance and already has features to make 90% of its functionality work through screen readers. - dave -----Original Message----- From: Austin, Darrel To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/23/2002 7:57 AM Subject: RE: CMS + Accesibility (WAS: [cms-list] vague question) As a government entity currently looking at CMS systems, we have the same concern. However, in my (albeit somewhat limited) research, the CMS isn't responsible for accesibility, but rather the internal developers who develop the content structure, markup and presentation templates. I think a CMS that doesn't offer much flexibility in how the content is marked up in the CMS's WYSIWYG editor (if it has one), or how it stores the content (such as storing a xml-dirty word file) can lead to some problems, but really, that is more of an issue for the client, not necessarily the CMS vendor. I think one bonus of a good CMS is that you could probably quite easily use different templates as you see fit to accomodate different disabilities. Granted, CSS is supposed to accomodate that as well. As for catering to the blind, there is only so much you can do with the content and templates. Ultimately, you are at the mercy of the quality of the screen reading software (which is a mixed bag at this point in time, it seems). I'd like to see some CMSs push accessibility options in their WYSIWYG editors, though...like the addition of full CSS support (which some do already...allowing the client to use a custom set of CSS tags for marking up content), the ability to include tags and attributes like ABBR, TITLE, LONGDESC, etc. BTW, care to share a few of those accesibility mailing lists with us? -Darrel
--I am not aware of any cms commercial or otherwise which carters for blind, visually impaired or otherwise disabled users, so does anyone have any information to show otherwise?
http://cms-list.org/
trim your replies for good karma.
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Message: 16
From: "Hari M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [cms-list] Reqest for opinions: OpenSource CMS
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:43:30 -0700
We investigated using a couple of Open Source CMS - Zope stood out the furthest. The biggest problem we had was access to technical information and support - it proved to risky to commit the entire organization.
We started on a mini project on a departmental level where the users were more technically savvy - but the support issue was financially draining.
I would suggest Open Source if the organization has the time to develop the expertise in-house. There are Open Source CMS consultants that do a very good job - but unfortunately it was still to risky for our management to commit.
Hari
>From: Jenn Accettola
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [cms-list] Reqest for opinions: OpenSource CMS
>Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:16:03 -0700
>
>Hi group - I'm looking for opinions on open source CMS:
>
>1. who should use open source CMS
>2. what are the most reliable open source CMS out there
>(and which verticals do they best support?)
>3. major advantages or disadvantages of using open source CMS?
>
>Thanks!
>
>--
>http://cms-list.org/
>trim your replies for good karma.
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Message: 17
From: "Austin, Darrel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED] '" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: CMS + Accesibility (WAS: [cms-list] vague question)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:48:18 -0500
Actually, the CMS most definitely has to be 508 for gov't contracts. The CMS being 508 means that your developers can be disabled and still use the system,
Excellent point, David. -Darrel --__--__-- Message: 18 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:13:42 -0400 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Charles Reitzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [cms-list] Re: cms-list digest, Vol 1 #283 - 10 msgs If you go the "roll your own" route, I would recommend using HTML Tidy to put the input into a consistent markup style such as well-formed XHTML. Tidy is now a library complete with a half decent Perl wrapper. I gather there a couple CMS out there using Tidy. See the Tidy home page: http://tidy.sourceforge.net/ My Tidy page: http://users.rcn.com/creitzel/tidy.html Note, pre-processing the pages w/ Tidy also allows application of XSLT. This combines well with Perl via Matt Seargent's LibXSLT (on CPAN: www.cpan.org). take it easy, Charles Reitzel At 07:29 PM 10/22/2002 -0700, Charley Bay wrote:
Peter Kappus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Perl Perl Perl! > > Depending on your love of programming, perl can > quickly become your best friend <snip>, > It's free, relatively easy to get started with, > and will let you do some incredibly powerful > acrobatics with very little effort. <snip> > > I've also heard that Python and Ruby are good for > this sort of thing, but Perl has been around a lot > longer and has an extensive library of modules to > keep you from reinventing the wheel. <snip> I've *got* to "second" Peter on this... nowhere else have I ever seen a programming language that "a little bit of knowledge is ok", meaning you can get work done knowing only a little bit. Usually, a little bit of knowlege is enough to get you in (really big) trouble. Perl stands alone there (easy to approach). Oh, and don't try to learn the whole Perl language. Nobody can, and nobody does. ;-) > Anyone else have experience with Python or Ruby for > extracting data and building XML? I spent a *lot* of time trying to justify using both Perl and Python. In the end, I use them both: They are so different. I'm watching Ruby carefully, and haven't decided yet. NOTHING IS EVEN CLOSE to Perl's ability to perform data reduction. Suck in a zillion files, regex, crunch, spit out the subset you want. Python is really neat, but it's never going to be as fast and convenient on the development side as is Perl. Be careful, though: Perl is the equivolent of a double-barrel sawed-off shotgun, and you pick up really bad habits really quickly. It's for when you want to get work done, not when you want to make something architecturally beautiful. And, I'm in the advanced end with multi-dimensional data structures w/references, overlaying modules and namespaces, type globbing, and "classes" with virtual inheritance (even though Perl5 supports a lot of that stuff, most people don't find a reasonable justification to go there). I've given up on selecting "just Perl" or "just Python"... they are useful for fundamentally different things. I use Python for test harness generation and everything scripted that scales over time. IMHO, Python is the BEST language ever devised to teach programming, and it reinforces good habits and good practices. (And, you can interface Python with C++ really easily with http://www.boost.org libraries-- You can't do that with Perl.) There are some very good Python libraries out there for XML parsing/writing (Perl too), and we're having good success with XML libs for Python. Ruby is an interesting "unifying back-end" where many languages can "come together" for logical inter-operation (and Ruby is its own language). I'm not strong there, but am interested in other opinions of it. FYI... in the biotech and "human genome" world, Perl dominates (mostly because it's easy and it was there first). Python and Ruby are starting to gain interest. I find this a little weird, though, because those guys have BIG problems and needs for BIG systems, and architecting solutions for big solutions seems like more of a need for Python than Perl (Perl is easy to get work done, but Python scales much better, IMHO). > Of course, unlike me, you may not run home from > work to write code in your free time...in which > case, you should probably talk to Russell. Heheheheheee. Life is a stream of consciousness from one compiler to another. ;-) --charley [EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ -- http://cms-list.org/ trim your replies for good karma.
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