On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 07:49:58PM +0100, Gavin Smith wrote:
> Coming back to this thread as I was prompted by Patrice:
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-texinfo/2025-01/msg00066.html
>
> I don't have a complete proposal but will post some comments to help
> get this conversation going again.
>
> > On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 07:53:20AM +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > without seeing examples. So how about showing one or more examples of
> > > formatting @titlepage block with the current commands, and what would
> > > it look like under this/these proposal(s)?
> >
> > The example in the Texinfo manual:
> >
> > @titlepage
> > @title Sample Title
> >
> > @c The following two commands start the copyright page.
> > @page
> > @vskip 0pt plus 1filll
> > @insertcopying
> > @end titlepage
> >
> > Would become
> >
> > @documentinfo
> > @title Sample Title
> > @end documentinfo
> >
> > @publicationinfoextra
> > @vskip 0pt plus 1filll
> > @insertcopying
> > @end publicationinfoextra
>
> I don't like the name of the @publicationinfoextra command as it is far too
> nebulous. This example contains an explicit formating command (@vskip) which
> is not "info".
>
> In the default case, when using @documentinfo, the copying text would be
> output
> on the verso of the title page in PDF output. No separate command would be
> necessary.
It is necessary if the user wants a specific formatting different than
the default.
> > An explicit formatting of the @titlepage like
> >
> > @titlepage
> > @sp 10
> > @center @titlefont{NAME-OF-MANUAL-WHEN-PRINTED}
> > @sp 2
> > @center SUBTITLE-IF-ANY
> > @sp 2
> > @center AUTHOR
> > ...
> > @end titlepage
> >
> > would become
> >
> > @documentinfo
> > @title NAME-OF-MANUAL-WHEN-PRINTED
> > @subtitle SUBTITLE-IF-ANY
> > @author AUTHOR
> > @end documentinfo
> >
> > @iftex
> > @cover
> > @sp 10
> > @center @titlefont{NAME-OF-MANUAL-WHEN-PRINTED}
> > @sp 2
> > @center SUBTITLE-IF-ANY
> > @sp 2
> > @center AUTHOR
> > @end cover
> > @end iftex
>
> Why would we need a new @cover command? Isn't this doing exactly the
> same thing that @titlepage does? Here the "cover" contains the title
> page.
>
> We shouldn't use such a short, simple name for a command ("cover") that
> is only for providing explicitly formatted material. (Moreover, the cover
> of an actual book is not a page and designed separately from the contents.)
You mean that the what is in @titlepage before the first @page is not
the cover? Anyway it can be another name, like
@booktitlepage
> Could we keep @titlepage but add a command to get the information
> from @documentinfo, allowing for other stuff to follow?
Ok for @printdocumentinfo, but I still think that we need to have
another command for the title page than @titlepage, such that the title
page verso is only output for this new command, not for @titlepage.
> @printdocumentinfo
> @sp 1
> Published by the Free Software Foundation @*
> 31 Milk St # 960789 @*
> Boston, MA 02196 @*
> USA @*
> ISBN 1-882114-67-1 @c for version 4.0, September 1999.
> @c ISBN 1-882114-65-5 is for version 3.12, March 1998.
> @c ISBN 1-882114-64-7 is for edition 2.24 of November 1996.
> @c ISBN 1-882114-63-9 is for edition 2.20 of 28 February 1995.
>
> @ignore
> @sp 1
> Cover art by Etienne Suvasa.
> @end ignore
> @end titlepage
> We could take inspiration from LaTeX, for example there is the \maketitle
> command. I couldn't find a standard way to generate copyright pages in
> LaTeX in the time I spent on it.
What I propose is actually inspired from LaTeX, where \maketitle or
titlepage environment are solely for the title page.
> > But it would also be possible to provide a cover for different formats,
> > and it could be made even simpler with new @insertXXX commands similar
> > to @copying/@insertcopying, like
> >
> > @iftex
> > @cover
> > @inserttitle
>
> This may or may not be necessary. The document author could always
> repeat the information for explicit formatting, or use their own
> macros.
That is actually what I proposed too.
> > A minor one is that the cover and the beginning of the document are both
> > in @titlepage, it is better to separate.
>
> If this refers to @titlepage containing both the title page and the
> following page (hence the proposal for a @titleverso command),
Yes it refers to that.
> there
> is the problem of what it means in the source if these commands are
> given in the wrong order:
>
> @titleverso
> @c @dots{}
> @end titleverso
>
> @titlepage
> @c @dots{}
> @end titlepage
>
> @node Top
> @top
>
> This would especially be a problem for the texinfo.tex output where the output
> is done as the input is read. (It's not a major problem.)
We could simply document that they should be in the output order.
What could be more complicated for the TeX implementation, is that if
the @titleverso is not present, the default output (like @vskip 0pt plus 1filll
followed by @insercopying) should be automatically output at the right
place. Another constraint should be that the new command is used
(@booktitlepage for example) and not @titlepage, if @titlepage is used,
the titleverso could already be there.
> Perhaps @copyrightpage could be used instead of @titleverso as this is
> more descriptive and this page is universally used for copyright notices.
It seems to me that it can be used for some other purposes that
copyright notices, but it is used for copyright notices in any case, so
it is ok for me.
--
Pat
