Mohibul: The proposal is live at https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/proposals/2025/ARIN_prop_343/
The policy shepherds have already engaged on some verbiage changes they need which I will work on having to them next week. It is definitely too late for it to become policy at ARIN 55, but hopefully it can have some initial discussion there; and then be fully buttoned up for ARIN 56. Preston Louis Ursini > On Apr 27, 2025, at 7:06 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Distributing Resources for Individuals ? Next Steps > (Mohibul Mahmud) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 20:06:24 -0400 > From: Mohibul Mahmud <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Distributing Resources for Individuals ? Next > Steps > Message-ID: > <cabzhj9+nmjqgeafqnt9pjyke0xbdm-5m9p+cgwncz+uvrtk...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Distributing Resources for Individuals ? Next Steps > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > Thank you, Preston, for taking the initiative to submit an official policy > proposal regarding the distribution of resources to individuals. > > > > I truly appreciate the thoughtful discussions that have taken place on this > topic over the past few weeks. > > > > As someone who initially suggested that ARIN study the practices from RIPE > and APNIC in an official staff report (to better understand the > trade-offs), I am pleased to see the community moving toward concrete > action. > > > > I would be very interested in seeing a preliminary version of the proposed > text, if possible, and would also encourage that we continue exploring: > > - Lessons learned from other RIRs' approaches to individual allocations. > - Potential operational impacts (verification processes, anti-abuse > mechanisms). > - How to maintain fairness and transparency while broadening access. > > > > Looking forward to continuing this conversation during ARIN 55 and beyond! > > > > Best regards, > > Mohibul > > > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 6:11?PM <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: distributing resources for individuals (Preston Ursini) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2025 17:10:49 -0500 >> From: Preston Ursini <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I believe there has been ample evidence from the community and first hand >> evidence introduced to justify this being made into a policy proposal. >> >> I?ve sent an official policy proposal to [email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]> ; hopefully this can be shepherded in with full ARIN >> support by ARIN 56, with some sort of preliminary discussion even possible >> at ARIN 55. >> >> Preston Louis Ursini >> >> >> >>> On Apr 21, 2025, at 4:28?PM, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> [email protected] >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: distributing resources for individuals (Mohibul Mahmud) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2025 17:28:36 -0400 >>> From: Mohibul Mahmud <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >>> Message-ID: >>> < >> cabzhj9+5zkxhnj0bducemq6s+uvqwhahx_qjl394jo_3m3q...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Since RIPE and APNIC have variations in how individuals can receive >>> resources, would it make sense for ARIN to document and review lessons >> from >>> those models in an official staff assessment or community report? >>> >>> This might help the community better evaluate the trade-offs before >>> considering any changes to our own policies. >>> >>> -Mohibul >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 12:43?PM <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: distributing resources for individuals (Owen DeLong) >>>> 2. Re: distributing resources for individuals (John Curran) >>>> 3. Re: distributing resources for individuals (David Farmer) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 09:13:23 -0700 >>>> From: Owen DeLong <[email protected]> >>>> To: John Curran <[email protected]> >>>> Cc: Paul E McNary <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >>>> >>>> While your statement is technically true, what they do not provide is an >>>> authoritative proof that an entity does not exist as a legal entity >> which >>>> can be verified. In fact, not all states registries will even allow the >>>> listing of sole proprietorships without a fictitious name and some of >> those >>>> states won?t allow fictitious name use of the individual?s legal name. >>>> >>>> I doubt you would find any of the following organizations which legally >>>> exist in California in the SOS registry: >>>> Delong Consulting >>>> Owen DeLong and Family >>>> Purple Politico >>>> >>>> This doesn?t prevent two of them from appearing on schedule C forms and >> it >>>> hasn?t prevented ARIN from taking money from the third for decades for >>>> resources being registered to it. >>>> >>>> ARIN?s misuse of SOS registries as an authoritative source of proof an >>>> organization doesn?t exist is what is the crux of the issue here. >>>> >>>> When DNS returns NXDOMAIN from an authoritative server, you know that >> that >>>> record doesn?t exist. This is not the case with SOS registries. All you >> can >>>> get from them is that the organization definitely exists or absent a >>>> record, that the organization may or may not exist. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 18:12, John Curran <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ?Paul - >>>>> >>>>> At explained to you on several occasions (including in-person at >> WISPA), >>>> ARIN conducts a business entity search within your state?s registry and >>>> that returns corporations, partnerships, sole proprietorships, DBA >> names, >>>> etc. Secretary of State business entity registries provide >> public-facing, >>>> authoritative records confirming that an organization exists as a legal >>>> entity which can be verified for every state in a clear, consistent, and >>>> neutral manner. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> /John >>>>> >>>>> John Curran >>>>> President and CEO >>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 8:42?PM, Paul E McNary <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ARIN wouldn't accept my City, County, business licenses or my state >>>> business IDs from Department of Revenue on a business that I started in >>>> ,1979. Why? >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ARIN-PPML >>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 16:41:59 +0000 >>>> From: John Curran <[email protected]> >>>> To: Owen DeLong <[email protected]> >>>> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> On Apr 18, 2025, at 11:42?AM, Owen DeLong <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> IMHO the best tact at this point may well be to submit both ACSP and >>>> policy proposals which provide for ARIN to issue resources to >> individuals >>>> as unregistered (by state) sole proprietorships. >>>> >>>> While ARIN follows current NRPM by issuing to resources to organizations >>>> (and encourages individuals to utilize the sole proprietor option or dba >>>> for compliance), a policy change to provide number resource issuance >>>> specifically to individuals is certainly something that this community >>>> could consider. The problem statement would appear to be (as you >> suggest >>>> above) something along the lines of: ?Resolve inability of ARIN to >>>> issuance IPv4/IPv6/ASN number resources directly to individuals." >>>> >>>> Doing so via the policy process would make sure that any germane policy >>>> nuances (e.g. issuance to individuals under ISP vs end-user policy, >> waiting >>>> list policy, etc.) get appropraite consideration when applied to >>>> individual resource holders. >>>> >>>> (I do not believe that any ACSP is necessary, as Impact to ARIN's >> existing >>>> operational practices and any implications for directly serving >> individuals >>>> are the type of issue that can be explored in the staff and legal >> review. ) >>>> >>>> FYI, >>>> /John >>>> >>>> John Curran >>>> President and CEO >>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>>> >> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250418/8f4167f8/attachment-0001.htm >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2025 11:42:20 -0500 >>>> From: David Farmer <[email protected]> >>>> To: Owen DeLong <[email protected]> >>>> Cc: Ryan Hamel <[email protected]>, Preston Ursini >>>> <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >>>> Message-ID: >>>> < >>>> can-dau1uadbi1ojqscosycbbdh+6xju_rq7kz1nroktpfue...@mail.gmail.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> In my view, Secretary of State (SOS) registration is an easy button for >>>> ARIN, and when available, that's fine. Nevertheless, I also expect ARIN >> to >>>> have processes and procedures in place when the SOS option is not >>>> available. A sole proprietorship that is not registered with the SOS is >>>> still a valid business in many states, and ARIN needs processes and >>>> procedures in place to deal with that situation. >>>> >>>> Earlier, I referenced Section 9 and the flexibility in determining that >> an >>>> organization is operating in the ARIN; similar flexibility is needed in >>>> determining whether an individual is operating as a business. I'll also >>>> note that Section 9 is quite clear: registration in the ARIN region >> alone >>>> is not sufficient to determine whether an organization is operating in >> the >>>> ARIN region. Similarly, a lack of registration alone should not be >>>> sufficient to find that an individual is not operating as a business. >>>> >>>> As to ARIN policy, it predominantly references organizations. >> Individuals >>>> only come up in the context of defining a Residential Customer. With >> that >>>> context, ARIN policy strongly assumes LIRs, ISPs, and end-users are >>>> organizations, not individuals. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 11:05?AM Owen DeLong <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Not all states will register a sole proprietorship under a person?s >> legal >>>>> name, making it difficult for some sole proprietorships to clear ARIN?s >>>>> current requirements. Worse, individuals and sole proprietors who know >>>>> which buttons to push on the ARIN staff seem to be able to get ORG-IDs >>>>> without SOS registration while others seem to get rejected on that >> basis. >>>>> >>>>> I?m not arguing that these ?exceptions? should go away, I?m arguing >> that >>>>> they should be more widely available and perhaps it is time to drop the >>>>> ?organization? pretext altogether. >>>>> >>>>> Owen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 17:54, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML < >>>> [email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> Ok, natural persons can be RIPE members in their own right, I guess I >> was >>>>> wrong, but you pay ?1,800 for membership. Where as with ARIN you start >>>> at >>>>> $250, even with potential state registration fees for a sole >>>>> proprietorship, you probably still come out well ahead. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 19:43 David Farmer <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Out of curiosity can you point me to the agreement on RIPE?s web site. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 19:38 Ryan Hamel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> David, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I signed an agreement with RIPE NCC, have an account in their portal, >>>>>>> and had an ASN + IPv6 assignment... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ryan Hamel >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> *From:* ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> on behalf of David >>>>>>> Farmer via ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 17, 2025 6:35:37 PM >>>>>>> *To:* John Curran <[email protected]> >>>>>>> *Cc:* Preston Ursini <[email protected]>; [email protected] < >>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take >>>>>>> care when clicking links or opening attachments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> First, my understanding is that individuals don't get resources from >>>>>>> RIPE either; Member Organizations do. You, as an individual, get >>>>>>> resources from an LIR that is a RIPE Member, and the LIR gets the >>>>>>> resources from RIPE, maintains the relationship with RIPE, and >> assigns >>>>>>> them to you. As an individual, your relationship is with the LIR, not >>>> RIPE, >>>>>>> unless I'm completely misunderstanding RIPE's policies and business >>>>>>> practices. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A similar arrangement could be facilitated by an LIR (also known as >> an >>>>>>> ISP) that is an ARIN Member Organization. That isn't as common a >>>> practice >>>>>>> here in the ARIN Region. ARIN has a lower barrier to entry and deals >>>>>>> directly with end-user organizations, but not end-users as >> individuals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 6:51?PM John Curran <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Preston - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don?t think any of the present discussion has been predicated on >>>> fraud >>>>>>> concerns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Note that ARIN currently has some extensive anti-fraud practices >> that >>>>>>> include various forms of government issued ID presentation and >>>>>>> verification.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> /John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Curran >>>>>>> President and CEO >>>>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:39?PM, Preston Ursini <[email protected] >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Would I be correct in that there hasn?t been an actually policy >>>> proposal >>>>>>> submitted for this? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I believe that whether or not this new policy were to be considered, >>>>>>> that a copy of a government issued identification document be >>>> submitted to >>>>>>> the person signing the Registration Services Agreement whenever an >>>> OrgID is >>>>>>> issued. This can help immensely in tracking down fraud which seems >> to >>>> be a >>>>>>> pillar concern. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For simplicity sake, I?d also say in any such policy allowing an >>>>>>> Individual to obtain numbering assets simply be issued an OrgID just >> as >>>>>>> sole proprietors are as to minimize disruption to ARIN operations in >>>>>>> implementing this policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Preston Ursini >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 6:28?PM, John Curran <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Preston - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That?s a reasonable question (?why an individual cannot be accepted >> as >>>>>>> they are generally the same legal entity??) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You?re right that a sole proprietorship is legally tied to the >>>>>>> individual behind it, but that doesn?t make it the same as issuing >>>>>>> resources to individuals. At the time of ARIN?s formation (and for a >>>>>>> suibstantial period before), number resources were issued to >>>> organizations. >>>>>>> The old netnumber.txt request forms made that clear, asking for ?the >>>>>>> organization responsible for establishing the network? along with a >>>> postal >>>>>>> address. That model is what ARIN inherited when it was formed in >> 1997, >>>> and >>>>>>> it?s what we continue to operate under. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While it?s true in theory that ARIN could adopt a model where it >>>>>>> directly serves individuals, this would represent a significant >>>> departure >>>>>>> from the registry model we inherited and have operated under for >>>> decades. >>>>>>> Even though individuals and organizations can both be ?legal >> entities,? >>>>>>> that does not mean they are treated identically under law. For >> example, >>>>>>> companies that predominantly focus on serving businesses (often >>>> referred to >>>>>>> as B2B) are often subject to different laws, regulations, and tax >>>> policy >>>>>>> than those that hold themselves out to serve individuals. Thus, >>>> shifting to >>>>>>> a model that openly includes individuals could have significant >>>> unintended >>>>>>> implications for ARIN. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That doesn?t mean it can?t be done, but it would be important to >>>>>>> understand the problem that such a change would solve. ARIN accepts >>>>>>> incorporated entities, DBAs, sole proprietors, etc.?because we know >>>>>>> networks are run by all kinds of operators. But in every case, we?re >>>> still >>>>>>> issuing to an organization, however minimal the structure might be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>> /John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Curran >>>>>>> President and CEO >>>>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 2:09?PM, Preston Ursini via ARIN-PPML < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If a sole proprietorship is accepted, I am confused as to why an >>>>>>> Individual cannot be accepted as they are generally the same legal >>>> entity >>>>>>> unless it is an individual? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are over 20,000 political subdivisions within the United States >>>>>>> when you count cities, counties, townships, etc., all with their own >>>> rules >>>>>>> when it comes to business licenses and conducting business, trying to >>>> tie >>>>>>> every sole proprietorship down with a business license when one may >>>> not be >>>>>>> required in many of these jurisdictions seems strange at best. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In general the law sees Corporations and Individuals as all in the >>>> same, >>>>>>> so I?m a little confused as to why ARIN would be ok with doing >> business >>>>>>> with a sole proprietor but not an "individual"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If the issue is fraud prevention, it seems like a better approach >> would >>>>>>> be tying all accounts regardless of whether it is a >>>> business/individual, >>>>>>> with a government issued identification document; the trend with >>>> having an >>>>>>> officer of a company sign an RSA seems to be a step in the direction >> in >>>>>>> tying real people to accounts; assuming the goal here is to ensure >>>>>>> accountability for resource allocation? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Preston Ursini >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:21?AM, [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Today's Topics: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. Re: distributing resources for individuals >>>>>>> ([email protected]) >>>>>>> 2. Re: distributing resources for individuals (John Curran) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Message: 1 >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 09:00:26 +0200 >>>>>>> From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: arin-ppml <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >>>>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi John, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A couple of questions on this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive? >>>>>>> procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te >>>> division >>>>>>> in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping >>>>>>> that ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only >>>> money, >>>>>>> but also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present >>>>>>> quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical >>>> activity), >>>>>>> is close to ?zero"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a >>>>>>> sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more >>>> expensive >>>>>>> or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or >>>> membership >>>>>>> documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, >>>> instead >>>>>>> of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of >>>> course >>>>>>> a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is >>>> already >>>>>>> set in the policies for each type of resource)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Jordi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> @jordipalet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <[email protected]> escribi?: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ryan - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Indeed. As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few >> times >>>>>>> in this discussion, ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and >>>> we do >>>>>>> have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain >> number >>>>>>> resources. Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works, >>>>>>> incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further >>>>>>> discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to >> be >>>>>>> solved. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> /John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Curran >>>>>>> President and CEO >>>>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are >>>> under >>>>>>> my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org >>>> tickets, and >>>>>>> the legal team. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in >>>> several >>>>>>> states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing >>>> ARIN's >>>>>>> agreements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ryan Hamel >>>>>>> From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> on behalf of David >> Farmer >>>>>>> via ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM >>>>>>> To: John Curran <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Cc: arin-ppml <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take >>>>>>> care when clicking links or opening attachments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; >> if >>>>>>> you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't >>>> need to >>>>>>> register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State, >>>>>>> effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it >>>> also >>>>>>> requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under >> the >>>>>>> owner's name. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that >> an >>>>>>> organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of >>>> latitude >>>>>>> should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a >>>> business >>>>>>> and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures >>>> don't >>>>>>> neatly align with ARIN procedures. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <[email protected] >> <mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <[email protected] >>>> <mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Originally >>>>>>> 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed >>>> by >>>>>>> this. >>>>>>> In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register >>>> with >>>>>>> the Secretary of State. >>>>>>> ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with >>>>>>> Secretary of State database. >>>>>>> We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that >>>>>>> wasn't good enough. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Paul - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that >>>> resulted >>>>>>> from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were >>>> unable to >>>>>>> register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013? There >>>> is a >>>>>>> 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all >>>>>>> appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there >>>> is/was >>>>>>> some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks >>>> understand >>>>>>> the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> /John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Curran >>>>>>> President and CEO >>>>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> ARIN-PPML >>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>>>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ********************************************** >>>>>>> IPv4 is over >>>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>>>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>>>>>> The IPv6 Company >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged >> or >>>>>>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use >>>> of >>>>>>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>>>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>>>>>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>>>>>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not >>>> the >>>>>>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution >>>> or >>>>>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>>>>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>>>>>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about >> this >>>>>>> communication and delete it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>>> URL: < >>>>>>> >>>> >> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250417/59eecf73/attachment-0001.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Message: 2 >>>>>>> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 12:21:30 +0000 >>>>>>> From: John Curran <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Cc: arin-ppml <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >>>>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jordi - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The representation you seek from ARIN regarding government procedures >>>>>>> across the the entire region is not possible to make ? and as you >>>> note, it >>>>>>> would be meaningless the very next day because such laws and >>>> regulations >>>>>>> are outside of ARIN?s control and subject to change. Note that this >>>> is the >>>>>>> case regardless of whether speaking of networks run by organizations >> or >>>>>>> individuals ? the legal requirements on networks in any given portion >>>> of >>>>>>> the ARIN region are not determined by ARIN. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What we can say is that our customers want us to be reasonably >> flexible >>>>>>> in our processes to the extent possible, just as we are with respect >> to >>>>>>> confirming whether organizations requesting resources operate within >>>> the >>>>>>> ARIN region. We?ve evolved our processes over time to make be more >>>>>>> straightforward, and this includes handling entities that are >>>> incorporated, >>>>>>> those using DBA registrations, sole proprietorships, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your original query noted that ? In LACNIC we are having a discussion >>>>>>> because the policy manual only allows to distribute resources to >>>>>>> ?organizations legally registered? ? ? To be clear, ARIN is >>>> effectively the >>>>>>> same, but we are quite flexible in recognition of how our network >>>> customers >>>>>>> may go about their legal registration. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>> /John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Curran >>>>>>> President and CEO >>>>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 3:00?AM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi John, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A couple of questions on this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive? >>>>>>> procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te >>>> division >>>>>>> in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping >>>>>>> that ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only >>>> money, >>>>>>> but also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present >>>>>>> quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical >>>> activity), >>>>>>> is close to ?zero"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a >>>>>>> sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more >>>> expensive >>>>>>> or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or >>>> membership >>>>>>> documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, >>>> instead >>>>>>> of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of >>>> course >>>>>>> a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is >>>> already >>>>>>> set in the policies for each type of resource)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Jordi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> @jordipalet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <[email protected]> escribi?: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ryan - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Indeed. As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few >> times >>>>>>> in this discussion, ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and >>>> we do >>>>>>> have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain >> number >>>>>>> resources. Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works, >>>>>>> incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further >>>>>>> discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to >> be >>>>>>> solved. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> /John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Curran >>>>>>> President and CEO >>>>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are >>>> under >>>>>>> my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org >>>> tickets, and >>>>>>> the legal team. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in >>>> several >>>>>>> states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing >>>> ARIN's >>>>>>> agreements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ryan Hamel >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> on behalf of David >> Farmer >>>>>>> via ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM >>>>>>> To: John Curran <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Cc: arin-ppml <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take >>>>>>> care when clicking links or opening attachments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; >> if >>>>>>> you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't >>>> need to >>>>>>> register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State, >>>>>>> effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it >>>> also >>>>>>> requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under >> the >>>>>>> owner's name. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that >> an >>>>>>> organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of >>>> latitude >>>>>>> should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a >>>> business >>>>>>> and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures >>>> don't >>>>>>> neatly align with ARIN procedures. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <[email protected] >> <mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <[email protected] >>>> <mailto: >>>>>>> [email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Originally >>>>>>> 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed >>>> by >>>>>>> this. >>>>>>> In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register >>>> with >>>>>>> the Secretary of State. >>>>>>> ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with >>>>>>> Secretary of State database. >>>>>>> We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that >>>>>>> wasn't good enough. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Paul - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that >>>> resulted >>>>>>> from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were >>>> unable to >>>>>>> register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013? There >>>> is a >>>>>>> 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all >>>>>>> appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there >>>> is/was >>>>>>> some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks >>>> understand >>>>>>> the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> /John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John Curran >>>>>>> President and CEO >>>>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> ARIN-PPML >>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>>>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ********************************************** >>>>>>> IPv4 is over >>>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>>>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>>>>>> The IPv6 Company >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged >> or >>>>>>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use >>>> of >>>>>>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>>>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>>>>>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>>>>>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not >>>> the >>>>>>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, >> distribution >>>> or >>>>>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>>>>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>>>>>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about >> this >>>>>>> communication and delete it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> ARIN-PPML >>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>>>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>>> URL: < >>>>>>> >>>> >> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250417/4718a46d/attachment.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> ARIN-PPML mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 238, Issue 17 >>>>>>> ****************************************** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> ARIN-PPML >>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>>>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> ARIN-PPML >>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>>>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> =============================================== >>>>>>> David Farmer Email:[email protected] >>>>>>> Networking & Telecommunication Services >>>>>>> Office of Information Technology >>>>>>> University of Minnesota >>>>>>> 2218 University Ave SE >>>>>>> < >>>> >> https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g >>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: 612-626-0815 >>>>>>> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 >>>>>>> =============================================== >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ARIN-PPML >>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> =============================================== >>>> David Farmer Email:[email protected] >>>> Networking & Telecommunication Services >>>> Office of Information Technology >>>> University of Minnesota >>>> 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 >>>> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 >>>> =============================================== >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>>> >> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250418/53c44af4/attachment.htm >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARIN-PPML mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 238, Issue 40 >>>> ****************************************** >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250421/7c398c04/attachment.htm >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-PPML mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 238, Issue 41 >>> ****************************************** >>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250421/2cdcfae1/attachment.htm >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 238, Issue 42 >> ****************************************** >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250427/5633c2f7/attachment.htm> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > > > ------------------------------ > > End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 238, Issue 43 > ****************************************** >
_______________________________________________ ARIN-PPML You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues.
