Ok, natural persons can be RIPE members in their own right, I guess I was wrong, but you pay €1,800 for membership. Where as with ARIN you start at $250, even with potential state registration fees for a sole proprietorship, you probably still come out well ahead.
On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 19:43 David Farmer <[email protected]> wrote: > Out of curiosity can you point me to the agreement on RIPE’s web site. > > Thanks > > On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 19:38 Ryan Hamel <[email protected]> wrote: > >> David, >> >> I signed an agreement with RIPE NCC, have an account in their portal, and >> had an ASN + IPv6 assignment... >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Ryan Hamel >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> on behalf of David Farmer >> via ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 17, 2025 6:35:37 PM >> *To:* John Curran <[email protected]> >> *Cc:* Preston Ursini <[email protected]>; [email protected] < >> [email protected]> >> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >> >> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take >> care when clicking links or opening attachments. >> >> First, my understanding is that individuals don't get resources from RIPE >> either; Member Organizations do. You, as an individual, get resources from >> an LIR that is a RIPE Member, and the LIR gets the resources from RIPE, >> maintains the relationship with RIPE, and assigns them to you. As an >> individual, your relationship is with the LIR, not RIPE, unless I'm >> completely misunderstanding RIPE's policies and business practices. >> >> A similar arrangement could be facilitated by an LIR (also known as an >> ISP) that is an ARIN Member Organization. That isn't as common a practice >> here in the ARIN Region. ARIN has a lower barrier to entry and deals >> directly with end-user organizations, but not end-users as individuals. >> >> Thanks. >> >> On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 6:51 PM John Curran <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Preston - >> >> I don’t think any of the present discussion has been predicated on fraud >> concerns. >> >> (Note that ARIN currently has some extensive anti-fraud practices that >> include various forms of government issued ID presentation and >> verification.) >> >> Thanks, >> /John >> >> John Curran >> President and CEO >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> >> >> On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Preston Ursini <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Would I be correct in that there hasn’t been an actually policy proposal >> submitted for this? >> >> I believe that whether or not this new policy were to be considered, that >> a copy of a government issued identification document be submitted to the >> person signing the Registration Services Agreement whenever an OrgID is >> issued. This can help immensely in tracking down fraud which seems to be a >> pillar concern. >> >> For simplicity sake, I’d also say in any such policy allowing an >> Individual to obtain numbering assets simply be issued an OrgID just as >> sole proprietors are as to minimize disruption to ARIN operations in >> implementing this policy. >> >> >> Preston Ursini >> >> >> On Apr 17, 2025, at 6:28 PM, John Curran <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Preston - >> >> That’s a reasonable question (“why an individual cannot be accepted as >> they are generally the same legal entity…”) >> >> You’re right that a sole proprietorship is legally tied to the individual >> behind it, but that doesn’t make it the same as issuing resources to >> individuals. At the time of ARIN’s formation (and for a suibstantial >> period before), number resources were issued to organizations. The old >> netnumber.txt request forms made that clear, asking for “the organization >> responsible for establishing the network” along with a postal address. That >> model is what ARIN inherited when it was formed in 1997, and it’s what we >> continue to operate under. >> >> While it’s true in theory that ARIN could adopt a model where it directly >> serves individuals, this would represent a significant departure from the >> registry model we inherited and have operated under for decades. Even >> though individuals and organizations can both be “legal entities,” that >> does not mean they are treated identically under law. For example, >> companies that predominantly focus on serving businesses (often referred to >> as B2B) are often subject to different laws, regulations, and tax policy >> than those that hold themselves out to serve individuals. Thus, shifting to >> a model that openly includes individuals could have significant unintended >> implications for ARIN. >> >> That doesn’t mean it can’t be done, but it would be important to >> understand the problem that such a change would solve. ARIN accepts >> incorporated entities, DBAs, sole proprietors, etc.—because we know >> networks are run by all kinds of operators. But in every case, we’re still >> issuing to an organization, however minimal the structure might be. >> >> Thanks! >> /John >> >> John Curran >> President and CEO >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> >> On Apr 17, 2025, at 2:09 PM, Preston Ursini via ARIN-PPML < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> If a sole proprietorship is accepted, I am confused as to why an >> Individual cannot be accepted as they are generally the same legal entity >> unless it is an individual? >> >> There are over 20,000 political subdivisions within the United States >> when you count cities, counties, townships, etc., all with their own rules >> when it comes to business licenses and conducting business, trying to tie >> every sole proprietorship down with a business license when one may not be >> required in many of these jurisdictions seems strange at best. >> >> In general the law sees Corporations and Individuals as all in the same, >> so I’m a little confused as to why ARIN would be ok with doing business >> with a sole proprietor but not an "individual"? >> >> If the issue is fraud prevention, it seems like a better approach would >> be tying all accounts regardless of whether it is a business/individual, >> with a government issued identification document; the trend with having an >> officer of a company sign an RSA seems to be a step in the direction in >> tying real people to accounts; assuming the goal here is to ensure >> accountability for resource allocation? >> >> >> >> Preston Ursini >> >> >> On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:21 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: distributing resources for individuals >> ([email protected]) >> 2. Re: distributing resources for individuals (John Curran) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 09:00:26 +0200 >> From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> To: arin-ppml <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi John, >> >> A couple of questions on this: >> >> 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive? >> procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te division >> in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN? >> >> 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping that >> ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only money, but >> also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present >> quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical activity), >> is close to ?zero"? >> >> 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a >> sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more expensive >> or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or membership >> documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, instead >> of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of course >> a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is already >> set in the policies for each type of resource)? >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> @jordipalet >> >> >> El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <[email protected]> escribi?: >> >> Ryan - >> >> Indeed. As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few times in >> this discussion, ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and we do >> have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain number >> resources. Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works, >> incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further >> discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to be >> solved. >> >> Thanks, >> /John >> >> John Curran >> President and CEO >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> >> >> On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> John, >> >> I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are under >> my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org tickets, and >> the legal team. >> >> A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in several >> states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing ARIN's >> agreements. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Ryan Hamel >> From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> on behalf of David Farmer >> via ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM >> To: John Curran <[email protected]> >> Cc: arin-ppml <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >> >> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care >> when clicking links or opening attachments. >> >> John, >> >> The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; if >> you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't need to >> register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship. >> >> So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State, >> effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it also >> requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under the >> owner's name. >> >> Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that an >> organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of latitude >> should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a business >> and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures don't >> neatly align with ARIN procedures. >> >> Thanks >> >> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <[email protected] <mailto: >> [email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Originally >> 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed by >> this. >> In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register with >> the Secretary of State. >> ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with >> Secretary of State database. >> We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that >> wasn't good enough. >> >> >> Paul - >> >> To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that resulted >> from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were unable to >> register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013? There is a >> 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all >> appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there is/was >> some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks understand >> the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so. >> >> Thanks, >> /John >> >> John Curran >> President and CEO >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> >> >> >> >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.theipv6company.com >> The IPv6 Company >> >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of >> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >> communication and delete it. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250417/59eecf73/attachment-0001.htm >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 12:21:30 +0000 >> From: John Curran <[email protected]> >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Cc: arin-ppml <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Jordi - >> >> The representation you seek from ARIN regarding government procedures >> across the the entire region is not possible to make ? and as you note, it >> would be meaningless the very next day because such laws and regulations >> are outside of ARIN?s control and subject to change. Note that this is the >> case regardless of whether speaking of networks run by organizations or >> individuals ? the legal requirements on networks in any given portion of >> the ARIN region are not determined by ARIN. >> >> What we can say is that our customers want us to be reasonably flexible >> in our processes to the extent possible, just as we are with respect to >> confirming whether organizations requesting resources operate within the >> ARIN region. We?ve evolved our processes over time to make be more >> straightforward, and this includes handling entities that are incorporated, >> those using DBA registrations, sole proprietorships, etc. >> >> Your original query noted that ? In LACNIC we are having a discussion >> because the policy manual only allows to distribute resources to >> ?organizations legally registered? ? ? To be clear, ARIN is effectively the >> same, but we are quite flexible in recognition of how our network customers >> may go about their legal registration. >> >> Thanks! >> /John >> >> John Curran >> President and CEO >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> >> On Apr 17, 2025, at 3:00?AM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> A couple of questions on this: >> >> 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive? >> procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te division >> in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN? >> >> 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping that >> ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only money, but >> also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present >> quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical activity), >> is close to ?zero"? >> >> 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a >> sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more expensive >> or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or membership >> documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, instead >> of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of course >> a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is already >> set in the policies for each type of resource)? >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> @jordipalet >> >> >> El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <[email protected]> escribi?: >> >> Ryan - >> >> Indeed. As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few times in >> this discussion, ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and we do >> have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain number >> resources. Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works, >> incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further >> discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to be >> solved. >> >> Thanks, >> /John >> >> John Curran >> President and CEO >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> >> >> On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> John, >> >> I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are under >> my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org tickets, and >> the legal team. >> >> A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in several >> states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing ARIN's >> agreements. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Ryan Hamel >> ________________________________ >> From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> on behalf of David Farmer >> via ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM >> To: John Curran <[email protected]> >> Cc: arin-ppml <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >> >> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care >> when clicking links or opening attachments. >> >> John, >> >> The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; if >> you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't need to >> register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship. >> >> So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State, >> effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it also >> requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under the >> owner's name. >> >> Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that an >> organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of latitude >> should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a business >> and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures don't >> neatly align with ARIN procedures. >> >> Thanks >> >> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <[email protected]<mailto: >> [email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <[email protected]<mailto: >> [email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Originally >> 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed by >> this. >> In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register with >> the Secretary of State. >> ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with >> Secretary of State database. >> We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that >> wasn't good enough. >> >> Paul - >> >> To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that resulted >> from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were unable to >> register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013? There is a >> 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all >> appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there is/was >> some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks understand >> the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so. >> >> Thanks, >> /John >> >> John Curran >> President and CEO >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> >> >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.theipv6company.com >> The IPv6 Company >> >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of >> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >> communication and delete it. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250417/4718a46d/attachment.htm >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 238, Issue 17 >> ****************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> =============================================== >> David Farmer Email:[email protected] >> Networking & Telecommunication Services >> Office of Information Technology >> University of Minnesota >> 2218 University Ave SE >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g> >> Phone: 612-626-0815 >> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 >> =============================================== >> >
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